54. Autism, Not Attitude: Embracing Neurodivergence at Work and in Relationships - Meet Felicia M. L. Davis and Nancy Wainscott
For years, Felicia M. L. Davis and Nancy Wainscott lived their journey with autism and neurodivergence from opposite sides of the room. One as a female leader, diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and a high IQ in her late twenties. The other as a licensed professional counselor who grew up with an undiagnosed autistic mother and later built a career supporting neurodivergent adults. In this episode, they join Nadja to talk about the book they wrote together, Autism, Not Attitude: Embracing Neurodivergence at Work and in Relationships, and why they felt so strongly that this resource needed to exist.
A central theme of the conversation is the gap Felicia and Nancy kept running into: most autism resources are written for parents, caregivers, and teachers of children, not for the adult who is living it. Felicia describes the strange experience of reading books that spoke about her instead of to her, and how that absence shaped the book's structure. Every chapter pairs Nancy's clinical perspective with Felicia's lived experience, giving readers what Felicia calls a peek behind the curtain: the internal dialogue behind behaviors that others only see from the outside.
They also dig into the real cost of misdiagnosis, especially for women. Nancy shares how often autistic traits get mistaken for generalized anxiety, bipolar disorder, or borderline personality disorder, in part because women tend to mask more effectively, and how damaging it is to be treated for a condition you don't actually have. This leads to a nuanced conversation about self-diagnosis: both agree it's a valid and often necessary starting point for community, language, and self-understanding, while also making the case for why an official diagnosis matters, particularly for accessing accommodations in school or work.
Felicia gets candid about her own career, including being written up at a bank job for practicing ballroom dance alone in the parking lot on her lunch break, and how understanding her own brain eventually helped her spot the same patterns in colleagues and direct reports, several of whom went from being nearly let go to being promoted within a year. The conversation also touches on the small but meaningful shorthand that neurodivergent people use to recognize each other, like the "socks on, socks off" test and the "spoon test," and how those small moments of being instantly understood can be profoundly relieving after years of feeling out of place.
The episode closes on a note of hope. Felicia and Nancy talk about the loneliness that comes from being a statistically small group of people trying to find others who truly relate, and why they see this book, and conversations like this one, as part of building that sense of connection. Their message to listeners: whether you're newly diagnosed, self-diagnosed, or supporting someone who is, there is no shame in continuing to look for answers, and there is real hope for things to get better.
About Felicia M. L. Davis and Nancy Wainscott
Felicia M. L. Davis Autistic Female, Business Leader, Founder of Eunoia Thinking Felicia M. L. Davis, MA, is an autistic ADHD female leader with over fifteen years of leadership from nonprofits to a Fortune 500 company. She is a frequent event speaker and corporate trainer focused on improving the lives of people through real measurable values in productivity and mental health.
Nancy Wainscott Licensed Professional Counselor Associate, Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor. Nancy Wainscott, MS, LPC-A, LCDC, has over thirty years of experience working extensively with neurodiverse clients. Growing up with an autistic mother, she brings personal insight to her work with individuals, couples, and families, navigating their unique worlds from autism to addiction.
Would you like to work with me 1:1 as your gifted and 2e coach? Please send me an email at hello@giftedunleashed.com or find more information about my coaching offer on my website giftedunleashe.com/coaching
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
Book: Autism, Not Attitude
feliciamldavis.com/book
Eunoia thinking website:eunoiathinking.com and facebook: facebook.com/eunoiathinkingneurospicy
Connect with Felicia on facebook:facebook.com/FeliciaMLDavis/ or LinkedIn:linkedin.com/in/feliciamldavis/
GiftedUnleashed
The space for gifted and twice-exceptional women: GiftedUnleashed.com
TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome To Gifted Unleashed
Nadja 0:58
Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed, where we talk about the gifted and twice-exceptional brain and how it affects our thinking and experience of the world differently. There are a lot of stereotypes and stigma around the term giftedness, and I'm here to challenge those. I'm here to raise awareness and to have a conversation around the topic of what it means to be a gifted and twice-exceptional adult. Common experience among gifted folks is that they feel out of place. They don't quite fit in. They're too sensitive, too intense, too emotional, too overexcitable, and too deep thinkers of the world and about themselves. So if you have been called too much of about anything, this show is for you. I'm Nadja, I'm too loud, too colourful, too bobbly, too bossy, and I love to talk too much. So welcome to my world. I'm so happy you're here. Welcome everybody. I'm so glad you're here. So today we have a wonderful episode with two guests. We have Felicia and Nancy who are here today. So Felicia M. L. Davis is an autistic ADHD female leader with over 15 years of leadership from nonprofits and a Fortune 500 company. She is a frequent event speaker and corporate trainer and focuses on incorporating the lives of people through real measurable values in productivity and mental health. And we also have Nancy Wainscott here, who is a licensed professional counselor and chemical dependency counselor, and has over 30 years of experience working extensively with neurodivergent clients, growing up with an autistic mother. She brings personal insights to her work with individuals, couples, families, navigating their unique worlds from autism to addiction. So welcome, Nancy and Felicia. I'm so excited you both are here. Thanks for having us on today. So yeah, and the reason you both are here together is because you have jointly written a book. Yay! Yay! Exactly. So but before we talk about the book uh called Autism, not Attitude, as we can see in the background, I would like to ask you a few personal questions and also asking you how you both ended up working in this neurodivergent space. Because most of us we do have
Meet Felicia And Nancy
Nadja 3:11
a personal story ending up working in this neurodivergent space. So would you like to share a little bit about your own personal stories and who would like to go first?
Felicia 3:22
So I'd be happy to start. Way before I was diagnosed, I actually worked at a school in Wichita, Kansas, in the USA, and it was called Heart Spring. And it's still around today. It's for level three autism or ASD. Um, so very low functioning. The hope is is by the time the children graduate that they're able to use the facilities by themselves, hopefully eat. And the point is to get them where most of them can be able to live in a care facility. So very extreme and needed 20, you know, 24-7 care. So I learned about autism a lot there, but fell under that myth of, well, everybody's a little autistic and really didn't understand what it meant. Then fast forward, you know, over a decade, and I've known Nancy for a long time now and happened to be in her living room one day, and we were having a conversation that's pretty comical and is actually in the book for what prompted me to get the diagnosis. And she helped me find somebody to find a diagnosis for an adult because I was in my late 20s. And that's when I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD and also a high IQ. And once I had those diagnoses, I realized, oh, I guess I am a little bit different than everybody else. And this is how my brain works. And then it made a huge difference from work to personal relationships. I doubled my salary in a year and a half. I finished my master's degree and kept going. And now my focus is to be the voice for the voiceless and really help people understand what it means to have a neurodivergent brain and how there's immense value in that in the business world, but that you do have to make some accommodations. And most of them are really simple, but having that awareness and understanding goes a long way. So, Nancy, I'll kick it over to you.
Nancy 5:12
In school, I studied psychology. And when I was finished, I at the time was working at a medical school, and the friend of mine, their son, was diagnosed with autism. And so they had spoken to me and they said, Hey, you know, we would like you to work with our son. I was like, I don't, I mean, yes, I studied psychology, but I didn't really know that much about autism. And so I started working with this family, and I just fell in love with it. And so I spent literally the last 30 years working with neurodivergent individuals. When I started working with small children, and there came a point where I realized that a lot of the kids were aging out. So I was thinking, what are we going to do for people that are older, more high functioning, ones that are going into uh high school and college and getting married? And so I started focusing on that population, and I've kind of been in this population for a while. Um, and I really enjoy the ability to help, you know, like Felicia said, kind of give a voice to those that don't have a voice, but there's a lot of treatment for younger kids, but there's not as much for you get into high school and you get into college and then in the workforce. So that's been my primary focus, you know, for at least the last 10 years, uh, is just that older population.
Nadja 6:43
So thank you for sharing a little bit your your background. And you mentioned, Felicia, that you known Nancy for a long time. So how did that collaboration then like happen? You know, how did you meet and how did you end up writing this book together? Because you both work individually in this field now.
Felicia 7:05
Good question. So both of us happen to be Catholic, which is how we met years ago when I moved from Kansas to Texas. And, you know, kind of the friendship kind of grew from there. And when she helped me find out that I had autism and ADHD, you know, I get the diagnosis. And then I went, excellent, now what? And so I think we went from, you know, being really great friends, you know, we both love to cook. There's a lot of things that we both really value and enjoy. But this really turned it from, you know, just a friendship where we'd see each other maybe once a week or twice a week to, you know, wait, we both realized there's something missing. Because I got my diagnosis, and like Nancy mentioned, there weren't really resources. Almost every resource that I was provided was here's a book you can read, and you start reading it and you realize that it's as if somebody is speaking about me instead of to me, because it's written for the parents or the caregivers or teachers. And while a lot of the resources are focused on individuals who are lower functioning, and we absolutely need those resources. There isn't a lot for an adult. You know, you don't grow out of it. There isn't a cure for it. And in my case, I hope there isn't because I like how my brain works. But we need resources to understand, you know, these are normal things to happen when you have autism and you have ADHD. And masking is very real. And it's not that you should never do it. There are certainly times that you should be doing it because it's all about translating and communicating effectively with others. And so, how do you leverage that to be successful at work, to be successful in relationships, to be a parent, or even just to be a good friend? And that kind of blossomed from there where, you know, Nancy took her clinical side and her experiences and mine. And together we said, you know, what if we take all of these aspects and put them together so that there is actually a resource for adults like me and for everybody who knows us, from spouses to friends to leaders who are also looking for those resources for how best to help and support so that we can all thrive together.
Nadja 9:21
And it's a beautiful book. I got I got a sneak peek, I can admit. And as the title says, right, it's Autism, Not Attitude, Embracing Neurodivergence at Work and in Relationships. So it's it's a lot about relationships, professional, personal, but also the relationship with ourselves. So yeah. Would you like to share a little bit more what went into that book?
Nancy 9:47
Well, we were talking, you know, about our obviously we have two very different experiences with this, but in that process of Felicia, you know, I went to Felicia and I said, look, I think they're on the systems work down there. Once that happened, this kind of snowballed into let's write a book together. And I think that it's something that I've always wanted to do, you know, to have a book, something that would maybe speak to, like I said, the you know, like an older population. But putting something like this together, we felt like would be really important because it has two different perspectives. Someone that is on the spectrum and someone that's worked with a lama spectrum for such a long time. The other part to that is I was raised by a mother who was on the autism spectrum, and she herself was not diagnosed until later in life. And just kind of looking in, being able to see the struggles that she had not ever being diagnosed. And then finally, you know, later in life being diagnosed, I saw the struggles of her not being able to really fit in and feeling different. And I mean, there was absolutely no assistance for her. It's interesting that I ended up working, I will say accidentally, with folks with autism. But once I started working with them, I felt very comfortable to me because I had already grown up with that. And so I think when I started working with even with the kids, the younger children, I felt so comfortable, just really understood them. And um, I think just having a mother with autism prepared me for that. And so um, so that's kind of how the book came about. And you know, we wanted to have the two that would uh speak to both the person with autism and and really just you know, someone that wasn't neurodivergent, just to help understand and put some real clarity around what autism is.
Nadja 11:58
And that really comes through when you flip through the pages, you you see, you know, the obviously there's the content of the book, but there's always some section where Felicia shares her personal story in the book. And yeah, I I loved reading those as well, just getting some nuggets. Okay, this is her lived experience, and then there is basically the other part that maybe the clinical side or more from
Late Diagnosis And Finding Purpose
Nadja 12:26
from the outside looking in, but it's from the inside looking out. So you have really both perspectives in this book, which is beautiful.
Felicia 12:33
Yeah, we kind of wanted to, you know, marry the two words. Yeah, I like to call it the peak behind the curtain. Yeah, it's it's not comprehensive, right? This doesn't cover everybody who has autism, but to give you an idea of what it feels like, some of that internal dialogue, because a lot of us, that's part of the beauty of books that you don't get in any other media form, is you get that internal dialogue of what's going on behind the scenes that so many of us don't understand otherwise. And so it's sharing that this might be what the observation is that somebody like Nancy has seen. And these might be things that they have said work, but then I can give you the internal dialogue of this is what's happening. This is what it feels like to go through this, whether it's, you know, something that's a challenge or whether it's something that's, you know, really a benefit and incredible. And everyone's like, How did she do that? Yeah. Giving all of those perspectives just so that, you know, whether you are the person who's like me that's neurodivergent and you want that validation and say, hey, I'm not alone in the world. Somebody else gets it, they understand. Or, you know, you're the neurotypical who's trying to understand, but maybe someone hasn't been able to articulate it in a way that's made sense. And so that was really what kind of separated out the pieces of the book to give both of those different perspectives.
Nadja 13:59
Yeah. And that really shines through. So thank you. It's a really awesome and beautiful book. Do you have a favorite chapter or passage that you could share a little bit about?
Felicia 14:15
Oh, that's a good question. There's there's actually a couple that I really like. Nancy, do you have one off hand first before I jump in?
Nancy 14:25
Jump in because I have a lot of favorites. So I'll have to try to think about it.
Felicia 14:30
Yeah, I I don't know that I could tell you that there's an absolute favorite. I will tell you towards the beginning of the book, I want to say it's like on maybe page 23, but don't quote me on that. I don't have the full book memorized. Do you think I would? Um, where it's talking about my first international business trip. And there's actually a picture of me asleep at a business dinner. And I love this picture so much. Uh, I believe the caption says something like a robot powered off. And to me, it's it's a striking visual of what can happen when you have autism. Because, you know, adults in their 30s apparently don't just fall asleep at dinner. And certainly that's not a habit of mine. But, you know, I got so exhausted by the end of the week and I couldn't make changes. You know, other people could sleep in. I couldn't. I would still wake up at 5:30 in the morning local time, no matter what, no matter where I am in the world, I wake up at 5:30 a.m. local time. Well, in India, they eat dinner really late relative to in the US. So in the US, we eat somewhere between five and seven-ish, give or take, maybe as late as eight o'clock. Occasionally somebody will have dinner at nine, but that's not terribly common unless, like, you know, you've gone to see a musical or a play or something beforehand. Whereas in India, because of the temperature, you know, you don't usually start eating dinner until nine, 10 o'clock at night. I'm already in bed and asleep. And so after, you know, three or four days of long days at work, I just couldn't do it anymore. And somebody who was neurotypical probably would have skipped out on dinner and just stayed at the hotel and maybe had something there. It wasn't something that even crossed my mind as an option. And I just find that photo to be so comedic and so accurate that I have to say I really love that piece. And then I will jump to towards the end of the book. There is a story in there about my children and how I parent them. There is, it is a foul language section, so I'm not going to repeat it, but they had questions about a word that you really shouldn't have children be using at all. And we took a very scientific approach to it. And the dialogue between me and my children is very comedic. And it's definitely something that somebody with a very literal brain like myself would do. So I would say those are two parts that I really like in the book. Nancy?
Nancy 17:06
Yeah, I think for me, from a clinical perspective, I think one of my favorite chapters is talking about stupid things professionals say. And I say that kind of tongue-in-cheek. I I really like that. And I think it was kind of a way for me to release some of my frustration with things that I've heard from you know different clients. So there is a story in there about a young man that I worked with who, when he came to me, first of all, he has a master's degree in computer science. So very bright, very bright man, you know, diagnosed with autism. But his psychiatrist at the time told him, because he had been losing so many jobs, that he needed to go on disability. And if you know anything about disability, I mean, you're lucky if you make $1,000 a month on disability. But it was so disappointing for me to hear about because I'm like, we haven't even tried anything yet, you know. So I asked him, just give me some time before you consider doing that. And um, he had lost five jobs previously. So we started working together and just kind of giving him those soft skills that he really didn't have. And he was making so many social mistakes at one. And he was very good at his job, but those soft skills he really struggled with. And so to this day, he's been in his job now 12 years, and you know, he makes six figures, he's in management now and has been able to hold that job. So I go back to stupid things professionals say because I can't imagine what would have happened if he listened to someone. I mean, it's a psychiatrist, and so somebody with a lot of authority when you're going to them asking, what should I do in this situation that I'm struggling with? And so I think that's probably one of my favorite things that I spoke about because I hope that it gives other people, or at least has them take pause, you know, before listening to someone and maybe really going with their gut and trying other things before just accepting one person's suggestion that really would have, quite frankly, ruined his life.
Why They Wrote Autism Not Attitude
Nadja19:36
Yeah, thank you for sharing this. Uh, you mentioned also in the book, right, giving hope is something that you both strive for achieving with this book. And in the beginning, Felicia, you said, you know, you're you're very successful in your career as an autistic person, but that is also outside of the statistic. Oh, how do you say outside of the norm of the statistic? Would you like to talk a little bit about that and you know, the struggle autistic people face, especially in the work setting?
Felicia 20:09
Absolutely. And I I will start by saying that I think I was very lucky. I I don't think this is the norm, and this is definitely not a reflection on anybody else for where they are in their journey. You know, I was lucky that I got to work from home, as I put it before it was cool. So before 2020, before the pandemic, I was working remotely. It's part of why I had no idea how good I was at my job because I wasn't sitting in an office with 10, 20, you know, 50 other people doing the same thing. I had nobody to compare to. So I was going strictly off of one data point, and that was whatever my leader told me. So if my leader said, Hey, you're doing great, you're hitting the marks, to me, that was all that mattered. I did not realize until years later that I was blowing everybody else out of the water by a landslide. And there is something to say when you don't have all of the other pressures that a lot of people face. Every time I would travel into our corporate office, you know, because I would have to take an airplane to get there because it's several states away, I struggled. You know, I struggled with the lighting in the office. I struggled with the noises of somebody on the other side of that cubicle. I struggled with the vibrations from, you know, the air conditioner or other things in the building that would make the entire building vibrate. I would struggle with somebody's cologne or perfume or whatever they made heated up for lunch, um, lotions. There were many things in a physical environment that were so overstimulating, I couldn't succeed. But by the time I had to face those, I was already in a leadership role and I wasn't tied to my desk. I didn't have to sit there and do what everybody else was doing. Because if I did, I wouldn't have made it in that environment. Um, I actually had a role that this one did not make it in the book, where I worked at a bank. And so I was a teller. And so my job was, you know, clients would come in, they would want to make a withdrawal or a deposit from their bank account, and I'd work directly with them. Highly regulated industry, right? We were very limited in what we could and couldn't do. When there was downtime, there was very little we could do with our free time because, again, we were responsible for people's finances. And I did not make it long in that job. I want to say I had that job for maybe three months. It is the only job in my entire life where I've ever been written up. Um, I still have the piece of paper. Had I thought about it, I would have brought it to this podcast. My write up was during my lunch break. I had gone out into our parking lot to go practice ballroom dancing because I happened to be taking a college class. And one of them was ballroom dancing. So I had a final coming up. So I'm out in the parking lot doing foxtrot and the waltz, all by myself in a suit working at the bank. Um I'd taken my name badge off and I didn't think anything of it. The manager of the bank comes out, calls me in. I get called into her office. The security officer is there. And I'm to say I'm confused would be an understatement. And I'm, you know, I sit in her office, she calls in the assistant branch manager. And, you know, at this point, I'm like, did I commit fraud? What, what did, what did I do wrong? And I was told that it was a security risk for me to be, you know, outside. And I'm like, well, I'm off the clock. And then also that it was unprofessional. And I said, well, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't doing any inappropriate dance. And I was practicing dance specifically because I have a final coming up in two days. I wasn't doing it in the lobby of the, you know, bank. I tried to find an appropriate place to do it. We only had, I think, 25-minute lunch breaks, so very short window to do this in. And I thought I had followed all of the proper procedures. What I didn't think about was we had a drive-thru. So clients could drive up, do their transactions that way, and then drive off, which meant when they drove around the back side of the building, we perpetually had clients driving back where they could see me. So looking back, I can see how that, you know, could be unprofessional and could potentially be a security risk if somebody wanted to kidnap me and hold me hostage for, you know, ransom. Still don't quite agree with it, but I can understand from the bank side why they would have had an issue with it. And yeah, I got a write-up for it. And I said, Oh, this is not the career for me. Um, actually, I'd sworn off all financial industries at that point because I said, Nope, you guys are too highly regulated. I can't do it. And then a few years later, I got my stockbroker license and ended up working at a financial firm for over a decade. But I found a different environment that happened to work. So I think that's the big thing. You know, I absolutely have had struggles. And I just kept saying, no, that's not right. I'm gonna pick something else. Nope, that's not it. I'm gonna do something else. And every time I hit that hurdle of this isn't working for me, I think I was really blessed that I could look at it and say, there's millions of job types out there. I don't have to fit in this little box. And obviously back then I didn't know I had autism and ADHD. I just knew that something made me think a little differently than everybody else. And I needed to find something that was going to work for me. So I kept trying until I figured it out. And then got stuck. And then thank goodness Nancy was there and said, Hey, I think I know what's, I think I know what it is, and got that diagnosis. And then, you know, she was able to help provide some education on what the things were. And, you know, she and I would just have chat after chat, you know, she'd be drinking her coffee. I'm drinking my tea. And I'd say, Well, what about this? And then she'd give me an answer and I'm like, that's stupid. But if I have to do it, I guess. And, you know, it was really that she didn't flinch when I called something stupid. And sometimes she'd even agree with me and say, Yeah, it is stupid, but do it anyway. And that, you know, kind of got me into that routine. My mother used to tell me occasionally, fake it till you make it. Or even if you don't want to do this, keep doing it until it becomes habit or routine. And, you know, that's kind of what I started doing with intentional masking, is what I might call it. For I have to do this, this, and this. That if somebody comes up to me and says, Felicia, how are you today? The proper response is I am fine. And then ask the question back. It doesn't, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you have all these other emotions. They don't actually want to hear them. Yeah. Unless it's, unless it's Nancy or, you know, somebody who's really close to me. The answer is, I am fine. How are you? And it's, I'm like, oh, that feels like lying. And then, you know, somebody told me, well, you could switch that to freaked out,
Favorite Stories From The Book
Felicia 27:01
what was it? Freaked out, insecure. I don't remember what the acronym is that somebody came up with once for fine. But there's, you know, basically you can make those four letters come up with a lot of different things. And so you could infer what it means. I can't say that I'm still thrilled about it, but I think that was that was really the big thing. And then when I had the opportunity to move into leadership and I started watching my direct reports or people or colleagues who I worked with struggling with similar things, and I went, wait a minute, that that looks familiar. That's how I would do it. And started working with them to say, hey, what if you did this instead? Do this instead. You know, they didn't have diagnoses and I didn't need it. I just knew that something was different. And honestly, so did most of the leaders. You know, the leaders would come up to me and say, Hey, we have this really incredible associate. They've got two master's degrees. They used to be the top in the department, but they've really rubbed people the wrong way. People don't really trust them anymore. You know, I wished we could get them back on par. They don't seem to enjoy their job. We don't know what else to do, but we're kind of teetering on, we may have to let this person go. And I said, let me have them. Um, you know, some of them were just given to me. I didn't get a choice. Others, you know, like, hey, let me let me work with that person, whether as their official leader or just kind of on the side. And several individuals, you know, I got them from, you know, sitting on that edge of we're not sure if they're gonna stick around to thriving. And most of them within six months to a year were up for a promotion. And several of them, you know, are thriving in the role that they're doing. One person I actually created an entire role for them because I was like, this is a need the department has. And I could see that with my, you know, brain going, this is the gap, we need to fill it. And they're like, well, nobody can do that. And I went, somebody who's got a brain like me can. And so I found the associate who it's like, yeah, they've got those, all those degrees. They can find that needle in a haystack. And that's what you're looking for. And I said, let me do a proof of concept. And I remember being asked, you know, you're a pretty new leader. Are you willing to stake your career on this? And I said, Yeah, yeah, I am. I was utterly confident I will do that. And within three, four months, you know, we had enough backing that they said, hey, this is working. We actually need two more people to do this job. And so then we had a total of three that were in rotation just because of the long hours we had in that area. And to this day, that's what they do. And it's a critical role inside the firm that has made a huge impact. But it took my brain seeing it and then finding someone else who was also neurodivergent, because honestly, a neurotypical brain couldn't do it. But it meant I had to coach them because I said, you're gonna be on phone calls with 30 to 150 people, and most of them are gonna be neurotypicals. You have to know how to communicate with them. And that's what it's about. So that's, you know, kind of a very long answer to your question, I realize. But, you know, the the luck that I was given and the fact that I happen to be an extrovert. So things like doing podcasts and talking are not things that bother me at all. And that was enough for me to say, you know what? We need to get this message out further and let people know they're not alone. So that that client that Nancy talked about who was told you just need to go on disability, knows that there's hope, but also that there are solutions and it's gonna take effort, but it's not as bad as you think. And it's very doable.
Nadja 30:42
Thank you for sharing this. And I do see a lot of, especially women who come to me and for coaching, and they've gotten various wrong diagnoses over the years until finally they get the diagnosis of autism, ADHD, and giftedness once in a while. Or they know from childhood that they were, you know, they were in gifted program, but they never made the connection that this is also how you might, you know, perceive the world differently. It's not just about output. And so knowing that and getting language, being able to advocate for yourself, and before they feel a little bit distorted, there's always something happening or going on and they cannot really put their finger to it. So that leads me to my next question about official diagnosis. You said you got your diagnosis because Nancy pointed it to it. And also in the book, there was this sentence, and I hear it a lot of the time, like you've made it this far in life, you're 40, 50, 60 years old. Why do you need a diagnosis? Do we need a diagnosis?
Felicia 31:53
Nancy, I'll let you start with that one.
Nancy 31:56
Yeah, I think that's the thing it's extremely important to have a diagnosis. Um it doesn't matter what age you are. I think number one, I think it's just knowing who you are. And I think number one, having a misdiagnosis can be really damaging because you know, you're literally being treated for something that you don't have. And I think I see this a lot uh with the diagnosis with women, and a lot of women that I see come to me with more mental health type diagnoses. Sometimes, you know, we'll get a diagnosis of generalized anxiety
Workplace Struggles And Simple Accommodations
Nancy 32:36
disorder, which makes sense to me. ADHD, that makes sense, but then they'll come and they'll have a diagnosis of bipolar or they'll have you know borderline personality disorder. And how they're presenting that inability to regulate that emotion swing that they present with, you know, really, if you look at autism and look, if you don't have that diagnosis and understand why so many things are affecting you the way they do, you are going to get a misdiagnosis. But now somebody's on medication for bipolar manic depression, all these things, when they're not, they don't even have that. So I think that can be very damaging. But I think just in life in general, can you imagine being told that you have borderline personality disorder or manic depression, but you really have autism? I mean, it's it I think it would be really frustrating to never feel like somebody was understanding you. And so I think it's important because just like whatever diagnoses that you get when you go to the doctor, you want to get the correct prescription. And it's very, very important. So when somebody says, well, it doesn't really matter, you've made it this far, it's like it's totally disregarding, you know, their own journey and their own understanding of themselves. So I think it's extremely important for somebody, you know, to get that diagnosis. And and we talk about this in the book, how so many women especially get misdiagnosed because they are so much better at masking. And I think that plays a really huge role in in the misdiagnoses. It's such a disservice to women. And you know, we look at even all the research that was done around autism was predominantly done with males. So I think there's still a lot to understand about the diagnosis around women. When someone says that to me, I always say, you need to get the diagnoses, you do. I think it also helps the person accept who they are, you know, and they have an answer, like a clear answer. I think being told, well, you have mental health issues, that's a pretty broad stroke. And I think if you say, hey, you know, you are on the autism, they can reach out and have a community of people that also have autism, and there are people that they can connect with. And and I think they can get the proper help done, whether it be coaching or therapy, they can get the proper things that they need. And so I don't accept the you, you know, you've made it this far.
Felicia 35:30
You know, it doesn't matter because it does I would just add on to that that you have to remember that anybody who's asking that question, why are you asking it? There's something that's still making you say, huh, I think this, this might be the right fit, which means you're still looking for answers. And as long as you're still looking for answers, you don't really want to be in that guessing game because, you know, I can't remember whether I put this in the book or not. But when I first got my autism diagnosis, I completely blew past the fact that I had an ADHD diagnosis. Just skimmed over it because I wasn't looking for that. I'd asked to be tested for autism. So that's what I looked for. I think it was Nancy who pointed it out when I gave her the results. She's like, Oh, okay, you have ADHD. I said, wait, I have what? Because I just I wasn't looking for it. You know, when you really understand how your brain works, and I think that's important as well when you read the book that I have autism, but I also have the co-occurring diagnosis of ADHD. And that does present differently than somebody who just has autism or somebody who just has ADHD. And, you know, again, if you're the person who's still looking for answers and you're asking that question, you're kind of answering it yourself. If you're saying, why should I get diagnosed? I think I would almost turn the question back on you and say, Well, why are you still looking for an answer?
Nadja 36:54
And if anybody listening or watching got their diagnosis pre-2013, I think it was the cutoff year when you had either, you were allowed to have either autism or ADHD, but the combination was only later. Is that correct, right, Nancy?
Felicia 37:12
You're well, and before 2013, if you would have been somebody like me, you would have been given the diagnosis of Asperger's. I think it was 2013 when the DSM V came out, and that's when it switched to the autism spectrum disorder. So another note for everybody that Asperger's is a valid diagnosis. It's a clinical diagnosis. Um, I actually like to go by the term I'm an Aspie. Some people don't like that, but you know, terms are just there to help us understand each other. And as long as you're using them in a respectful manner, I think you're okay. If you start using it to obviously call someone a name, it's sort of like you can say geek or nerd, and that could be a positive thing, or it could be a bullying thing. So just keep that in mind when you're using words.
Nadja 37:58
And that leads to the topic of being misunderstood by yourself if you don't have a diagnosis or language or you know, knowing what's going on, but also being misunderstood in relationships to others and that feeds into the experience of loneliness. I would like to just also brush on that topic, even though that is a huge topic and it's one of the big drivers why I'm doing what I'm doing. The feeling lonely in this neurodivergent experience, especially. Felicia, you you made the math. You did the math in the book.
Felicia 38:36
I did. It's it's a little crazy. And as I put the disclaimer in, it's probably not accurate because we don't have the full range of diagnoses. And the first time I did the math, I think it came out to like 11.58 people. And I went, no, no. And I went back through and I said, okay, let me go find some better data because that's way too depressing. And the number is higher now as I was able to sort out women from men for some of the diagnoses. But it is a small number of people who can truly relate to a brain when you are dealing with, you know, multiple varying diagnoses. You know, if you do have the gifted mind and then you have autism, and then you have ADHD. And if you're someone like me who has hypoaphanasia where I can't I can't see pictures in my mind, that further delineates me from other individuals. And you just start adding them up and you're like, well, statistically, this is a small number of people. And it's not a bad thing, but it does mean that the likelihood of being misunderstood is a lot higher. And so you do feel that lonely and that isolation, which, you know, was another thing that prompted this book, is I know that those numbers aren't quite accurate. And finding other individuals who are neurodivergent, even if we're not the exact same, because we don't have to be. And even if you don't understand it fully, you know, like I can probably relate to things that you experience, you can relate to things that I experience, even if they're a little bit different. Now, there's one quote in the book that says, Are you a socks on or socks off person? And uh Nancy and I actually made bookmarks that actually have that quote. There's a couple of bookmarks that we have. I think the other quote that I really like was the one that Nancy had written that said, What is it? Everyone's a little autistic, right? Next tell me how if stubbing your toe makes you a little paraplegic, something like that. And I love the socks on, socks off one because it's the same root cause. I don't want anything touching my feet. And it's either nothing can touch my feet, so I have to have socks on all the time, so nothing touches my feet, or absolutely nothing can touch my feet, so I can't have socks on because they would suffocate them. But it's the exact same root cause of we just don't want things touching our feet. And it's just how our brain elects to interpret that, which direction we go. So it's it's things like that where it's we might still be different in how we experience the, you know, neurodivergence of our brains, but it's easier to understand each other. Whereas, you know, I can always tell when there's a neurotypical who reads that bookmark and they're like, socks on, socks off. And I'm like, let me get the book. Hold on, hold on. This is the page you need to read. Read this, and I'll read that little bit. And they're like, Oh, I mean, I guess I kind of understand it now. Huh, that's interesting. Versus the person that I just say that phrase to. And a lot of them are just like, I know the answer. Like, I I don't have to explain it. I just say socks on or socks off. And I bet you already had the answer.
Nadja 41:35
Yeah. There there's another test, the spoon test. Have you heard of the spoon test? Like holding just any spoon. And is this a yes or no spoon for you? Yep. Right.
Felicia 41:47
Yep. Oh, I I absolutely fall under that category. It's oh, show me your spoon. Yeah. I I have I have a set of 16. Yeah, my silver is a 16 piece because it's
Why Adult Diagnosis Still Matters
Felicia 42:01
purchased two. And if I ever go to, you know, an Airbnb or I'm at someone's house and they happen to have odd spoons, and I find the spoon that I like, uh there they might say it's in the dishwasher. I'm like, okay, well, if it's dirty, I'll wash it. If it's in the middle of a load, can I stop it in the middle so I can have a spoon? There's a drawer. There's 10 other spoons. Okay. I can't use this.
Nadja 42:25
No, yeah. See, we understand each other. We can relate. Yeah. And um another reason for having this vocabulary, having a sense of what's going on is to then find people that are similar, as you said, probably not going to be the same, but similar to us with a certain shared lived experience so that we can have these connections. So I would just re-emphasize from my standpoint, I do understand why having an official diagnosis is important. However, when somebody just starts engaging with a topic, reading, is able to connect, feel seen, you know, use this language. And for that, I would say, and I don't know if you agree, you know, self-diagnosis is valid until you have an official diagnosis at least. Or how do you see self-diagnosis in a space of autism?
Felicia 43:29
So from my perspective, in the in the business world, I like to tell everybody a diagnosis belongs in the clinical field. It really does. As far as, you know, for business, there are few cases where if you're asking for a major exception, then documentation may be requested, um, at least in the US. I know it's kind of different around the world for what accommodations may be available. Certainly if you're requesting something that's going to cost, you know, it's going to cost the business more to do. Usually they, there's grants and stuff that they can get for it, but some of those may require additional paperwork. So having the diagnosis could be beneficial in some cases. But in general, within the business world, if you can articulate, instead of saying, this is annoying, you know, because a lot of people will find it annoying to hear their coworker chomping on potato chips, you know, in the cube next door, right? But there's a huge difference between I'm annoyed by it and I can, you know, muddle through and it's not that big of a thing, versus I end up with a migraine. It's so overwhelming. And here's the 72 things in the office that are making this way too challenging for me to deal with. And if we could fix 40 of those, I'll still have to deal with the other 32. But if we could fix 40 of those, that would be incredible. And having the right language to do that. So I think, you know, if you have self-diagnosed and not by using TikTok or social media, that, you know, I saw this thing once, and it says that, you know, that's where you can fall into that trap of everybody's a little autistic, you know, everybody has a food they don't like, a texture that bothers them, but it's it's the internal dialogue and it's how your brain is wired that you're actually looking for to make the distinction. So I think that can be okay in that environment, but certainly if you're looking for support resources, then I think that might be the catalyst to say you get tested. But Nancy, I'll kick it over to you for the clinical side.
Nancy 45:34
Yes, I mean I think we have to look at, you know, when you talk about everybody has different things, I think we look at the difference between it being like neurological versus, you know. And I think that I always encourage, especially the uh adults that I work with that are like going into college, I always ask them to get the to go ahead and get a diagnosis because they may not need accommodations when they're in school. They might not need any of them. But if they do need that, like if they have a professor that you know is difficult in the lecture, but they need to record that lecture, you know, not all professors will allow you to record. And so just having that accommodation in place, so you can potentially like record that lecture, and then you can pay attention during the lecture. You know, there's a lot of different accommodations that they can get. And I think it can make a difference between having a successful college experience versus one that's more difficult. So if they have a self-diagnoses and they go to the school and say, hey, I'm on the autism spectrum, they're gonna say, we need to see you know your paperwork in order to get accommodation. So I always encourage them to get that because, like I said, even if they don't need it, it's kind of a safety guard to say, let's put these things in place just in case. You know, I I I like to tell them that let's get that scaffolding around you. You might not need it, but if you do, then you're not gonna have to argue to get that extra assistance.
Loneliness Language And Self Diagnosis
Nadja 47:14
But what I'm trying to distinguish is you don't need it at the beginning of your journey to start working with a professional, to start having conversations, to be part of groups, or to be kind of, you know, feeling excluded. Also in the gifted space. I say, you know, if if this content resonates with you, you're in the right place. You can be here if you're not gifted, but you might not get anything out of. I don't know what you're getting out of it, having these conversations or listening, or maybe you know somebody and you want to support someone, but you're you're welcome in this space to be without having an official assessment.
Nancy 47:54
Yes, I think that's very true. A lot of times people will come and they suspect they have autism, and I will tell them it doesn't matter that you have the diagnoses, we're gonna go ahead and start treating and start working on those things, and I'll start trying to plug you into autism resources and in a community, you know, beforehand. But yeah, so you're right. I, you know, they don't necessarily have to have it when they start their journey.
Felicia 48:19
Well, and I I would also say that people tend to be very welcoming. You know, if you're like I'm working towards this, and there isn't, unlike other things that you could be misdiagnosed with that, you know, they're going to issue a prescription for or something, there's very few things for autism that could potentially have a negative consequence. You know, if part of it is teaching
Felicia 48:46
you to say, okay, if someone asks how you're doing, just respond back with I'm fine, how are you? There's no downside to that. It works for everybody. It works for everybody. And that's that's the thing with a lot of the accommodations and things, is it works for everybody. And I would say, you know, even if you're gifted, like you said, does this resonate? Does this feel like, you know, sound like it feels like you, right? But I would certainly say there's probably a lot of your listeners who, like you said, might be listening because they're like, I know somebody who's like this and I just want to understand them. And that's, you know, that's that other piece is starting to get that understanding. So yeah, I think starting with that, hmm, I might be working towards it. There's not really a negative.
Where To Find Them And Closing
Nadja 49:30
Thank you for sharing. So I really would love to keep talking to you, but we almost talked an hour already. So if anybody listening or watching would like to connect with you, where can they find you? Like Felicia, would you start sharing where people can connect with you?
Felicia 49:48
Absolutely. And so there's actually two websites. Um, my website's FeliciaMLDavis.com. The second website is Yanoia Thinking. And Yanoia Thinking is where you can find both Nancy and I. Uh, the book is available on both websites. It will be available on Amazon starting on October the 6th this year, so 2026, which is really exciting. But we do have some advanced copies that Nancy and I are autographing and sending out ahead of that date for physical copies. Uh, the audio version, though, in the ebook will be available until that official October 6th date. And then you can find me on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram as FeliciaMLDavis.
Nadja 50:35
Thank you. And I will put all the links into the show notes so people can just click. And Nancy, where can they find you if somebody would like to work with you?
Nancy 50:45
If they would like to work with me, they could find me. It's very simple. It's just therapyforworth.com. That's one place they can find me. And then obviously, you know, through our other site that we have that Felicia mentioned.
Nadja 50:59
So thank you so much. Before I let you go, is there anything else you would like to share? Something that you would want the listeners to know, something you wished you'd know earlier. Like some last words of wisdom.
Felicia 51:13
I think the big thing I would tell everybody is never stop trying, never stop learning. Yeah, I've spoken with several people. And, you know, whether you're the parent with a child who's neurodivergent and you're struggling, you're doing a great job because you're continuing to try. Whether you're the neurodivergent individual who's recently found out or has been struggling with this for years, there is hope. There are solutions. We're all going to have days that are harder than others, but don't forget to focus on all the wonderful things that make you unique.
Nadja 51:44
Beautiful. Thank you.
Nancy 51:46
I think from the therapy perspective, I kind of have a motto that I always go by that if you haven't learned something, then I haven't figured out how to teach it. And I always say that, you know, because sometimes they'll they'll come and they'll say, we can't figure this out. And I always just tell them, it's okay, we're gonna figure it out. I just haven't figured out how to teach the work yet. And so it's collaborative. And I think that we have to, as clinicians, really listen to our clients and and listen to what they're telling us. And it isn't just the therapist telling them this is what you need to do. This it's it's a team when you're when you're working and trying to help someone that's neurodivergent.
Nadja 52:32
Thank you for reaffirming that. So thank you both, Nancy and Felicia, for being here. All the best, and I'm sure we will stay connected. And thank you for the listeners who joined in today. And like and subscribe wherever you listen to this podcast, and I will see you next time. Bye! I hope you enjoyed this episode and you learned something new. And if you did, please like, subscribe, and leave a review. And if you feel like somebody else that you know could profit from this, please send them a link to this show. And if you want to learn more, you find everything at giftedunleash.com. And you can also subscribe
Nadja 53:16
to the newsletter there, so you will always be up to date for new things that are coming. And all the information that we mentioned today will be on the show notes for the episode. So everything is right there for you. And with that said, I wish you a wonderful day, and I see you next time. Bye.